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Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) [message #13535 is a reply to message #13350]

Tue, 29 May 2007 13:07

ebiederm
Messages: 1354
Registered: February 2006

Senior Member

Hmm. I seem to have forgotten to send this one.

Pavel Emelianov <xemul@openvz.org> writes:

> Eric W. Biederman wrote:

> Generic structures are not always needed. Say, why don't we
> have N-level page tables in kernel? Why not make them generic?
> What if some ia128 architecture will require 7-level tables!?

PID namespaces unlike the other namespaces are fundamentally nested.
Which is an unfortunate pain. But if you want to allow nesting
of containers of different types such as system containers and
application containers you need nested PID namespaces.

>> Having more then two layers means we are prepared to use pid namespaces more
>> generally. It really isn't that much harder.
>
> It is not, but do we need to spend so much time on solving
> not relevant problems?

It is relevant to some of us. Therefore it is a relevant problem.

>>>> - Semantically fork is easier then unshare. Unshare can mean
>>> This is not. When you fork, the kid shares the session and the
>>> group with its parent, but moving this pids to new ns is bad - the
>>> parent will happen to be half-moved. Thus you need to break the
>>> session and the group in fork(), but this is extra complexity.
>>
>> Nope. You will just need to have the child call setsid() if
>> you don't want to share the session and the group.
>
> Of course, but setsid() must be done *before* creating a new
> namespace, Otherwise you will have a half-inserted into new
> namespace task. This sounds awful.

We can experience weird interactions, but not really worse then the
sending a signal from outside the namespace. So we may want to
map the pids of the session and the pgrp into the new namespace but
functionally it's not really a big deal, and we can call setsid
after the fork.

>>>> a lot of things, and it is easy to pick a meaning that has weird
>>>> side effects. Your implementation has a serious problem in that you
>>>> change the value of getpid() at runtime. Glibc does not know how to
>>>> cope with the value of getpid() changing.
>>> This pid changing happens only once per task lifetime.
>>
>> Unshare isn't once per task lifetime, unless you added some extra
>> constraints.
>
> It is once. You create a new namespace and that's all.

What prevents you from calling unshare multiple times?

>>> Though I haven't
>>> seen any problems with glibc for many years running OpenVZ and I think,
>>> that if glibc will want to cache this getpid() value we can teach it to
>>> uncache this value in case someone called unshare() with CLONE_NEWPIDS.
>>
>> glibc very much caches the results of getpid().
>
> Can you prove it? We have run OpenVZ for many years and with many
> userspace configurations and we haven't seen the problems with
> glibc ever.

Yes. I did a migration prototype in user space. Migrated a process
to a new pid, but getpid returned the pid before migration. So I
investigated why, including reading the glibc code. glibc cache the
pid value. Once the value is cached only a fork invalidates the
cache.

From: nptl/sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/getpid.c

pid_t
__getpid (void)
{
pid_t result = THREAD_GETMEM (THREAD_SELF, pid);
if (__builtin_expect (result <= 0, 0))
result = really_getpid (result);
return result;
}

THREAD_GETMEM is a memory read.
really_getpid is the syscall.

Eric

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[Message index]

		[PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:32
		[PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:35
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:09
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:22
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:31
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:48
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:00
		Re: [PATCH 1/13] Round up the API By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:02
		[PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:37
		Re: [PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:08
		Re: [PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 06:58
		Re: [PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:01
		Re: [PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:21
		Re: [PATCH 2/13] Small preparations for namespaces By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:55
		[PATCH 3/13] Introduciton of config option and clone flag By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:42
		Re: [PATCH 3/13] Introduciton of config option and clone flag By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 15:39
		[PATCH 4/13] Introduce the vpid fields and helpers for getting them By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:44
		[PATCH 5/13] Expand the pid/task seeking functions set By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:46
		Re: [PATCH 5/13] Expand the pid/task seeking functions set By: Dave Hansen on Thu, 24 May 2007 17:11
		Re: [PATCH 5/13] Expand the pid/task seeking functions set By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:08
		Re: [PATCH 5/13] Expand the pid/task seeking functions set By: Sukadev Bhattiprolu on Fri, 25 May 2007 23:36
		[PATCH 6/13] Pid allocation/freeing procedures By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:49
		[PATCH 7/13] Set virtual pids for a newly cloned task By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:53
		[PATCH 8/13] The namespace cloning By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 12:57
		[PATCH 9/13] Make proc be able to have multiple super blocks By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:01
		[PATCH 10/13] Make proc draw pids from appropriate namespace By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:04
		[PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:06
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:05
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: xemul on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:15
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:33
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 06:33
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: ebiederm on Fri, 25 May 2007 15:48
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Cedric Le Goater on Tue, 29 May 2007 12:32
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 31 May 2007 07:57
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 31 May 2007 08:00
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: ebiederm on Thu, 31 May 2007 11:26
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 31 May 2007 11:46
		Re: [PATCH 11/13] Changes to show virtual ids to user By: ebiederm on Thu, 31 May 2007 13:41
		[PATCH 12/13] Show appropriate pids in proc By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:08
		[PATCH 13/13] Make all proc entres accessible in a namespace By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:13
		Instructions of how to make testing easy By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 13:19
		Re: Instructions of how to make testing easy By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:16
		Re: Instructions of how to make testing easy By: Cedric Le Goater on Thu, 24 May 2007 14:55
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 15:09
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: xemul on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:11
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:59
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 18:56
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 19:10
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:08
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:25
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:53
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 14:25
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Mon, 28 May 2007 07:48
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Tue, 29 May 2007 04:30
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Tue, 29 May 2007 07:47
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Tue, 29 May 2007 12:36
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:06
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Fri, 25 May 2007 14:55
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:00
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:20
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 06:29
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: serue on Fri, 25 May 2007 13:29
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:26
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Thu, 24 May 2007 19:18
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:15
		Re: Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: dev on Mon, 28 May 2007 11:50
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: ebiederm on Tue, 29 May 2007 13:07
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Daniel Lezcano on Thu, 24 May 2007 16:41
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Pavel Emelianov on Fri, 25 May 2007 07:26
		Re: [PATCH 0/13] Pid namespaces (OpenVZ view) By: Daniel Lezcano on Fri, 25 May 2007 08:30

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